Why Russia likes Soviet occupation monuments?

Tere,
Oleks hea kui ka sama lähiajaloo informatsioon oleks vene keeles saadaval.
Keskmine venelane ei oska eesti keelti, rääkimata inglise keelest.

terv
Rommi

Dear Mart,

When will Estonian government recognize publicly that the entire unrest was orchestrated by Putin to distract attention from the Baltic Sea pipeline? Here is a ready made solution http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/590

Are you going to do it? Have you got the guts?

With kindest regards.
Yours sincerely,

Alexander Rannak.

Hea Rommi!

Olen välja andnud samal teemal neli venekeelset korralikult illustreeritud brośyyri – tänu kirjastusele Grenader, kes asja ette võttis – need on üsna populaarsed, praegu valmistatakse ette uut trükki. Mida aga kindlasti vaja on, on venekeelsed koduleheküljed Eesti ajaloo teemal – ja korralikult illustreeritud koduleheküljed.

Dear Alexander!

I agree that this unrest is orchestrated by Moscow – and I believe that one reason for this can be to press Estonia on pipeline. The results are actually opposite – Estonian Prime Minister just announced that he refuses to meet Schröder, who is coming to Estonia to advocate the project.

Aitäh ! Nüüd on kohe välismaalastest sõpradele midagi näidata, kui nad siin toimuvast aru ei saa

Thank you for having a lot of text in English. I am an Estonian, but at the moment I am residing outside of Estonia. Lot of people have asked me to explain them “the fuss” about the Bronze Soldier and I have suggested them to read your blog. I think mr. Laar really is a man of great knowledge.

Ka stalinistlikul ajaloolasel Aleksander Djukovil on loo kohta oma versioon: http://specnaz.ru/article/?1064

I am, in general, in favour of moving the statue. Its negative symbolism to Estonians far outweighs the positive symbolism to Estonia’s Russian community. I would, like most others, be in favour of it obliteration had it not been for the fact that it symbolises the personal sacrifice of many men in the defeat of Nazism.

I have many thoughts and questions relating not only into the bronze status but to Estonia’s relationship with Russia in general, but I shall just burden you with 2.

It has never been exactly clear to me what the intent of the statue is.

Is it to memorialise:-
i) all men or all soviets (Russians plus local conscripts) or maybe just all Russians who died defeating the Nazi’s regardless of where in Europe they fought or
ii) more specifically those who died in the liberation of Estonia from the Nazi occupation.

My second question is this.

As I understand it, Estonia would like for the International community to recognize the crimes committed under soviet occupation in the same way as those committed by Nazi. Ie, illegality of denying them; pressure for Russia to at least acknowledge and preferable accept responsibility for them.

A road block in obtaining such international recognition could be Estonia’s position with regard to its part in the “removal” of Jews and Romany from Estonia during the Nazi occupation. Some would say Estonians had a large part of the responsibility for this.

What exactly is the governments position with regards Estonia’s participation (or lack thereof) in adding the Nazis with these crimes.

Thanks

Dear Trevor!

Lot of thanks for very good questions.

1) Purpose of monument. All monuments which build to remember soldiers who fought against Nazis in II WW are standing and there has been no problems with them. Problems are with this one monument, which was not monument for war-victims – but for “liberation” of Tallinn in 22.09.1944. But in this day there were no German soldiers to fight in Tallinn anymore, there was national government under pRIME Minister Otto Tief – so for Estonians this is a monument for destruction of independent Estonia. This is a reason why it was so hated.

2) On Nazi occupation – and destruction of jewish and roman people – it really happened and we are very sad. Estonians who partipicated in these crimes are responsible for these excactly as the people, who deported or killed people in soviet time. My grandfather was by example killed by nazis. There was a resistance movement against nazis – and namely on basis of this national government in 1944 was created.

More information on all this can be found in websites of international commission on Nazi and Communist occupation. http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/index.htm

I will be pleased to answer on any concrete questions

Dear Mr. Laar,
Statue, was erected in 1947

Dear Trevor,
I would like to help Mr. Laar to anwer your question:

Operational Situation Report USSR No. 111

The Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service (SD)
B. No. IV A 1 – B/41 – top secret

Berlin, 12 October 1941

Top Secret

50 copies
36th copy

Operational Situation Report U.S.S.R. No. 111

* * * * * * *

II. Reports from the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos
Einsatzgruppe A. Sonderkommando 1a
Location Tallin, reports:

Jews in Esthonia

At the beginning of 1940 about 4,500 Jews were living in Esthonia. About 1,900 to 2,000 of them were living in Tallin, larger Jewish communities were at Tartu, Narva, and Parnu, while only few Jews were living out in the flat country.
The deportations carried out by the Russians, as far as they concerned Jews, cannot be established in numbers. According to inquiries made so far, Jewry had hardly been affected by them.

With the advance of the German troops on Esthonian territory, about half of the Jews made preparations for flight and, as these Jews had collaborated with the Soviet authorities, they left

the country with them going east. Only few of them were seized in Tallin because their escape route had been cut off. After the occupation of the country, there were probably still about 2,000 Jews left in the country.

The Esthonian self-defense units, which had been formed when the Wehrmacht marched in, started immediately to arrest Jews. Spontaneous demonstrations against Jewry did not take place because there was no substantial enlightenment of the population.

The following orders were therefore issued by us:

1. The arrest of all male Jews over 16.

2. The arrest of all Jewesses fit for work between the ages of 16 and 60, who were utilized to work in the peat bogs.

3. Collective billeting of female Jewish residents of Tartu and vicinity in the synagogue and a tenement house in Tartu.

4. Arrest of all male and female Jews fit for work in Parnu and vicinity.

5. Registration of all Jews according to age, sex, and fitness for work for the purpose of billeting them in a camp which is in the stage of preparation.

All male Jews over 16, with the exception of physicians and the appointed Jewish elders, were executed by the Esthonian self-defense units under supervision of the Sonderkommando. As for the town and country district of Tallin, the action is still under way as the search for the Jewish hideouts has not yet been completed. The total number of Jews shot in Esthonia is so far 440.

When these measures are completed, about 500 to 600 Jewesses and children will still be alive.

The village communities are already now free from Jews.

For the Jews residing at Tallin and vicinity a camp is at present being prepared at Harku (District Tallin), which after receiving the Jews from Tallin is to be expanded to contain all Jews from Esthonia. All Jewesses fit for work are employed with farm work and cutting of peat on the property of the nearby prison so that the questions of feeding and financing are solved.

As an immediate measure the following order was issued:

1. Marking of all Jews over six with a yellow star, at least 10 cm. large to be attached on the left side of the breast and on the back;

2. Prohibition to exercise a public trade;

3. Prohibition to use sidewalks, public communications, and to frequent theaters, cinemas, and restaurants;

4. Seizure of all Jewish property;

5. Prohibition to attend schools.

Mr. Vaht – thank You for the document – among other information there is one unique confession in this document.

“Spontaneous demonstrations against Jewry did not take place because there was no substantial enlightenment of the population.”

Estonia was really one of the few countries in CEntral and Eastern Europe – probably the only one – where nazis could not organize any pogroms agains jews. Occupation authorities had to give the orders to annihilate jews. This is not taking responsibility away from them who followed such criminal orders. Commander of Einzatsgrupp Martin Sandberger is by the way living in Germany – Estonian authorities could not get him to the court as he had soon served one sentence in prison.

Mart and Eduard

Thanks for the detailed answers.

It would seem to me from these answers that Estonians were active in aiding the Nazis but only under orders from them. Probably carried out by Estonian for fear for their own lives.

Question:- Is there any evidence to suggest that any Estonians undertook any anti Jewish/Romany activities without being ordered to, possibly as a way to gain favour with the incoming or newly arrived Nazis?

Personally, I would like to see Estonia blameless before the world but this can only be done if at some point Estonia has officially accepted responsibility and apologised for any wrong doing (maybe it has already?), no matter how small.

Although the Jewish issue may not be so relevant to the Bonze Soldier issue it is relevant to the bigger picture of weakening Estonian/Russian relations as now with the recent Russian accusations Estonia’s history is being highlighted and held up in the “International Court of Public Opinion”. Comments that I have read around the internet in response to articles about the statue’s removal that are anti-Estonian seem to gravitate to this issue.

I know most Nazi occupied countries have this same problem to deal with but they do not currently have accusations of being “fascists” being thrown at them by Russia. The result of these accusations is that to gain international favour Estonia needs to go the extra mile to be as “white” as possible.

“Problems are with this one monument, which was not monument for war-victims – but for “liberation” of Tallinn in 22.09.1944. But in this day there were no German soldiers to fight in Tallinn anymore”

On reading your blog this fact became news to me. I had assumed, as I think many do, that there was a “real” liberation before the reoccupation.

I have almost finished reading your book “Estonia’s Way”. (Thanks for writing a historical resource that us foreigners can refer to). In it there are several pages devoted to the battles involved in Germany’s retreat from Estonia. Whilst Tallinn may have been Nazi free at the time the Red Army arrived, isn’t there room for an argument that the Nazis had retreated under threat of destruction by them. As such, it was this “threat” which maybe not completely, but in some way, resulted in Tallinn being “Liberated”.

Dear Trevor!

Thanks You again for questions.

1) There is no facts or eveidence that in any way Estonians acted against Jewish people before arrival of German forces. Estonia was known by its tolerant attitude – in 1925 wew garanted national minorities included jews most liberal cultural authonomy in this time Europe – and were included for this to Jerusalem Golden Book.

2) Estonia has offically and publicly appologized for crimes made in Estonia during Nazi occupations and said that that are sorry that we were not capable to stop them. I did this personally as PM in state visit to Isreal in 1993 appologizing for Estonian communists who deported appr. one third of jewish populations and for Estonians who by German orders participated in annihilation of other one third – one third escaped.

3)Withdraw of the German forces was result of Hitler desicion in 16.09.1944 to leave Estonia. Estonian national resistance used this moment for restoration of independence – as we did in 1918 when Red Army leave and German arrived. So this was our government there and without the Red army we have had our independence restored – as Atlantic Charta promised.

Ok, looks like I asked these questions to the right man!

Thanks for your time in answering them and thanks for the English blog.

Everywhere I read about the statue it states that its purpose was to commemorate the red army soldiers who fought the Nazi’s. This is a much wider purpose than the one you have stated. What evidence or resources are there to refer to get clarification on this key issue.

Maybe there is a transcript of the statue’s dedication or was there a plaque stating the statues meaning to its visitors?

“Why Russia likes Soviet occupation monuments?”

I have another question…

Why do ordinary Russians find it so hard to believe that the Soviets oppressed (not liberated) Estonians when 10’s – even 100’s – of millions of Russians were also oppressed by the Soviets for 75 years? Tens of millions of Russians were sent to the gulag or killed for defying the communists and today it seems their descendants are defending the Soviet’s actions against Estonia (as well as other former republics).

Cc,

While we wait for Mart’s response, I offer you my opinion, which is that the cause is the state-controlled media in Russia. The Putinist regime has a firm grip on most Russian journalists. This is caused by the repressions that the regime has done on the journalists that have criticized them. By now, every journalist in Russia understands that criticizing the regime can result even in death.

For that reason, most Russian journalists voluntarily publish what they think the regime would like. Consequently, the Russian public gets a very distorted view of the world. Consequently, they think they are right in their barbarity – that it is justified.

Dear Trevor,
Thank you for interesting about Estonian history. Estorian history is very sad and very complicated. More than 700 years under “Balts”rules, Swedish Empire then part of the Russian Empire, and only 20 years of independence between WWI and WWII. After WWII part of the Soviet Union. A would love to elaborate this subject further with permition of respecful Mr. Laar.
I’m quest on this blod and I believe I must ask permition from the owner of the “house”.

For “CC”- Dear CC,
Your statemet about GULAG and oppression is absolutely correct. But about love of the USSR……
This is not exactly as it seems:)

Thank you, gentlemen for asking questions about our very cozy home Estonia.

For what and whom are these people protesting? They live in Estonia, if they want to be Russian and support Russia then move to Russia!! It seems to me these people have no purpose or belonging in their lives! I wonder how well off they would be in Russia? Estonia has has been too good to these people, better than those they support! I support Estonian government as do many Irish who see this protest as a farce!

The few people who are buried under this statue should be like everyone else, be buried in a cemetary ! I am sure that at least half of of them didn’t even believe in what they were fighting for, they just obeyed orders!

In Moscow they orchestrated protests outside the Estonian Embassy – for what??? They are shooting themselves in the foot! I thought Russia was starting to move on but it seems Communism still rules to some degree!

Niamh,

We thank you for your support.

I have continued my investigations into the questions of the exact nature o and purpose of the monument and thanks to a poster at citypaper.ee’s forum I found the following document which offers substantial and credible authority that the monument was indeed specifically dedicated to the so called “Liberation of Tallinn” and not generally to those Soviet Soldiers killed in fighting the Nazi’s as is claimed by many including Moscow and the Russian media.

The full 21 page word document can be found here – http://www.valitsus.ee/brf/doc.php?282742

The monument was however rededicated (not sure if formally or not) to “all” those who died in the war in 1991 (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn).

Dear Mart

Have you seen one those “Nashi” propaganda brochures, the similarity with Hitlerjugend propaganda is uncanny! I guess we could call them PutinJugend.

Take a look here: http://publicoffender.livejournal.com/755.html

Dear Mr. Larr:

I have made many visits to Estonia over the past 19 years, the first time with a group of Finnish tourists. My wife is Finnish and her sister in law is Estonian, so we fully understand what your people have lived through. I even walked into a human rights demonstration in Tallinn during my first visit.

It’s really sad to see what has transpired in Estonia over the past few weeks. I have written to some of the blogs, and in one of them, a nasty Russian had some very vulgar words about your views. I have dealt with Russians all of my professional life, ever since my student days visiting the “Soiuz” in 1965 (I have a Ph.D. in political science).

One thing I did want to ask you, though. I have been in touch with Dr. Zuroff of the Wiesenthal Center, who said he would not have issued his condemnation of the decision to move the statue had the Estonian government been more forthcoming on the issue of bringing war criminals to justice and confronting Estonian complicity in Nazi war crimes. I know this issue of the “victim also being the perpetrator” comes up in many other contexts, whether the Palestinians raise it in relation to the Israelis, or the Jews in relation to Polish complicity in German crimes against their compatriots (see Jan Grosz, “Fear,” 2006). But he is highly frustrated at having had no cooperation with the Estonian government in tracking down and prosecuting its citizens who may have been guilty of war crimes during the German occupation.

It is a matter of Estonian national security to be sure that the issue of accusations of being less than forthcoming on this issue can be used against your county. Russians will leave nothing undone to blacken Estonia’s reputation, and I was wondering whether it is time to reconsider whether you can do something more to show that your country deserves more than the “F” grade it gets from the Wiesenthal Center.

I know it is highly insensitive of the Russians to propagate the “Estonians=Fascists” line, but wondered whether there is a way to disarm these propagandists.

I have learned over a dozen foreign languages in my time, so I recognize the importance of being able to communicate with people in their own language. It is a matter of pride that, when I visit Estonia, I can say at least a few words in your own language; significantly, n 1988, I purchased an Estonian grammar written for Russian speakers which I understand was the first such book made available in your country. I hope that, with good will on both sides, the language issue will also find a solution. I realize that it is simpler for Russian speakers to go along the way they always have. (When I taught a course on transition, I believe it was the work of Marju Laurisin I found that referred to a phenomenon we don’t hear about today — the deliberate desire of Russian parents in Estonia to make sure their children are given a solid grounding in the state language so they can get all the benefits of citizenship). I also remember the strong feelings in Slovakia in the 1990’s raised over the lack of interest of the Hungarian minority to use Slovak (in southern Slovakia, many of them never even come in contact with ethnic Slovaks).

Unfortunately, too many Russians have blind spots about many things. One with whom I have been corresponding seems to feel that democracy is something that people in the FSU or Eastern Europe will adopt only so long as bribes (e.g. grants) keep coming in from Western sources. They don’t recognize that democracy is valuable in its own right as a way of life. They think that the reactions to years of communism are nothing more than a new form of Bolshevism.

Anyway, I know you have a great deal to do with your country’s successes over the past decade and a half, and wish you and your people many more in the future.

Dear Mr Laar,

Very interesting to read. I also read your articel in the Swedish paper Dagens Nyheter today. It is good with someone with a little different perpective.

Hope you could write more often here in english. I write a lot about Estonia in my own blog. But in swedish.

Dear Mr Laar,

it was very interesting for me to find and explore your site, while searching for information about resistance in Estonia after 1945. I found many facts i didn’t know before and it seems that history is not what we used to know about it.
Anyway, i’ll keep reading your articles and any information about Estonia and its brave fight against the communists.
Mr Laar, i am from Bulgaria and my country has also suffered a lot during the communist period. But the situation here is quite different than in Estonia – we are still sleeping in our red dream, we sigh before the portrets of communist leaders and some people are trying to assure us how good was in this period. Sad, but i hope that Bulgaria will follow Estonia on its way to break the chains of lies and propaganda in history.

Good luck with your site!

Sincerely,

Georgi Grancharov

[...] Thursday, July 26th, 2007 in The intelligentsia, Liberal democracy, History, Political Former Estonian PM has a blog — and responds to commenters! [...]

When you make a mistake, it is always easier to blame others than to admit your guilt. You can’t believe Russians living in Estonia could gather together for the monument, so you keep saying Moscow organized it. And you can’t admit that most Russians who live there are loyal to Estonians and they agree to take your culture and learn your language, so you keep hating them and complying on them.

Я очень рад, что нашел блог чтоль любимого нами – русскими персонажа! Сообщу своим друзьям об этом прекрасном открытии.
Думаю, что Вам предстоит ответить на многие вопросы моих соотечественников.
На многие.

Выучившись на советские деньги, вы теперь услужливо поливаете грязью тех “оккупантов”, благодаря которым стали (?) человеком.

Уверен – настанет тот день, когда вам придётся держать ответ за всё. В тесном кабинете перед усталым следователем НКВД
И не делайте вид, что вы русского не понимаете.

Бывайте!

I’d like to say to Heike that please be careful while reading Mr.Zuroff’s stories as these are often not based on true facts.
It is also sad that some threats are written in russian here above my commentary.
I’d like to wish well to Mr.Laar, we are very proud of his work on explaining our complicated history and aims to rest of the world.
Lyyli from Estonia

Hi,

Выучившись на советские деньги, вы теперь услужливо поливаете грязью тех “оккупантов”, благодаря которым стали (?) человеком.

It actually is a fact, most of today’s Estonians are educated in Soviet built schools. Most of today’s schools were built during the Soviet time.

An interesting fact: It is safe to say that Soviet Union has been teaching most of today’s Estonians how to write in their own language.

A question to Mr. Laar: Why haven’t Estonia bothered to legally proof Soviet occupation till this day?

Люблю сообщения в таком духе! Спасибо